Curse

HawkofStorms · Apr 09, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Oh boy. The health bar not changing to purple when you have a degen hex on you. Because that's a crucial bug.

The hyperbole of an OP deserves no response.

Sun Fired Blank · Apr 09, 2009, 07:01 PM // 19:01

As mentioned before, the problem is that Air of Disenchantment doesn't have the same functionality as Mark of Insecurity, despite the wording. In one case, Mark of Insecurity, you have 100 - x: linear duration reduction. In the second case, Air of Disenchantment, you have (something like) 100 / x. The intention behind both skills is pretty clear judging by equations and numbers; it's not a bug, it's the design for Mark of Insecurity and wording for both skills that suck.

The logical process behind noticing a degen hex doesn't make the bar purple is probably just a failure to tick the "makes bar purple" box. In fact, those skills probably didn't get QA'ed that intensely because they assumed they wouldn't need to be QA'd intensely. In the case of most of those degen hexes, all that needed to be added was a copy / paste the degen clause and (in some cases) a numbers tweak on pre-existing code. In the case of Mark of Insecurity, this probably lead to the "your Patient Spirit and Tactics Stances among other things are completely irrelevant" problem, and in the case of Weaken Knees, they probably also copy / pasted the code segment from Shameful Fear.

It was clearly overlooked that those hexes didn't cause degen before, and from a player-side perspective it probably doesn't make much sense that the degen clause isn't automatically tied to the "makes bars purple" clause. From a developer-side perspective, it's a pretty sensible separation that just requires you to flip a boolean switch.

At any rate, as I said I think you're just being nitpicky. That's fine to some extent, but I'm generally more worried about things being terrible then things being overlooked; the only time I care about the latter is when it overlaps with the former.

You just got tomahawked · Apr 09, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Protoss, stop getting pissed because you can't get a silver cape even when you're surrounded by amazing players. This is the reason you don't have access to Izzy's forums. This is why no one in the PvP community respects you. You have to post on guru (and in Riverside) to get an audience to listen. Go find the integral of something or whatever.

lutz · Apr 09, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by You just got tomahawked

Protoss, stop getting pissed because you can't get a silver cape even when you're surrounded by amazing players. This is the reason you don't have access to Izzy's forums. This is why no one in the PvP community respects you. You have to post on guru (and in Riverside) to get an audience to listen. Go find the integral of something or whatever.

If I posted this on QQ, everyone would agree with me and that wouldn't be anything new, now would it?

Most of QQ that's worth talking to already knows most of what I'm saying.

I don't have access to Izzy's forums because I haven't won a gold cape, or haven't placed in the top 2-4 consistently. I've only been playing competitive PvP for probably less than a year, with people that I like playing with, with builds I like playing. What's wrong?

u mad?

Konker2020 · Apr 09, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Read this thread. http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10366145

And you do realize that by changing any one thing, it is possible to change something else anywhere else within the game, and GW is a big game... I'm guessing that you have no experience with coding.

Anyway... they do test them and clean out a fairly large portion of bugs before hand, expecting them to clear every single bug is naive.

When they then release the update, we (the gamers) which number vastly more than the staffing at Anet, find and report the rest of the bugs.

It's actually a pretty simple process that is commonly used when it come to anything gaming, or related to coding directly. That is also the reason for alpha and beta testers for games.

lutz · Apr 09, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

Read this thread. http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10366145

And you do realize that by changing any one thing, it is possible to change something else anywhere else within the game, and GW is a big game... I'm guessing that you have no experience with coding.

Anyway... they do test them and clean out a fairly large portion of bugs before hand, expecting them to clear every single bug is naive.

When they then release the update, we (the gamers) which number vastly more than the staffing at Anet, find and report the rest of the bugs.

It's actually a pretty simple process that is commonly used when it come to anything gaming, or related to coding directly. That is also the reason for alpha and beta testers for games.

I don't care about minute bugs that are pretty difficult to find.
What I do care about are bugs that literally should be found within 20 minutes of testing.

Quote:

And you do realize that by changing any one thing, it is possible to change something else anywhere else within the game, and GW is a big game... I'm guessing that you have no experience with coding.

The skill database is most likely hardcoded into the game, rather than being a separate table. If you actually bothered to read, I noted that hard-to-find skill mechanic changes bugs are not a big deal, because one person could not possibly find all of them in a reasonable time (it would take that person 4 hours to do all of that. I mean, in a real company, that would be small, but with ArenaNet, my standards have dropped drastically).

What I am concerned about are incredibly obvious things that are found in skill mechanic changes. e.g.: Degeneration hexes not turning someone's bar purple. That's incredibly obvious. "It's just a flesh wound" giving someone a speed boost without actually removing conditions. That's the first test anyone would do with that skill. Cultist's Fervor working with every spell instead of just Necromancer spells? Should have been found within the first 10 minutes of testing. Recurring Insecurity not ending even on hex removal - really? These kind of errors are the kind of errors I wonder if ArenaNet even tries to find.

And as for programming, I don't even care about the mechanic changes which require coding to change in skill interactions (which shouldn't really happen if they incorporated modular design better) - what I'm concerned about are number changes. Number changes are incredibly fast. They are modifications to particular tables of values (whether the values are set in the code or retrieved from internal database is irrelevent).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

No, the ridiculous thing is that you think they would just take your word, change the numbers on all those skills, and not do any testing.

The ridiculous thing is that most of the time, they take bad advice from their own co-workers, not do any testing, and release the skill update.
and then ignore the people who actually know what they're doing.

Edwards · Apr 10, 2009, 04:46 AM // 04:46

What's insulting to me is not so much that they let some of these things slip, but that they then tell us that we can't have a skill update this month because it wouldn't have "the level of polish, consideration, and testing that it should have."

That excuse doesn't really fly when normal updates don't have an exceptional level of "polish, consideration, and testing" in the first place. If I believed that by postponing this month's skill update, we would get a better quality one next month, or if there was a high standard of quality for them to be concerned with upholding to begin with, it wouldn't be such a slap in the face. Anet is famous for skill updates which ignore the major balance problems in the game, introduce new broken stuff, and generally don't improve things all that much. So why not at least throw us a bone and nerf at least one of the obviously broken skills/templates in the game?

Skyy High · Apr 10, 2009, 04:51 AM // 04:51

No, no, it's more ridiculous that you think you know better. See, it's their game. If they screw it up beyond all reason, well, they have the right to do that. It'd be pretty stupid, but it's still their job. You, on the other hand, are some random nobody on teh intarwebs spouting off (in many cases horrendous) skill changes, demanding that they be taken at face value, and that they would solve all balance problems in PvP. This is why it's ridiculous: because not only are you doing a poor job of suggesting skill balances, but you're a nobody with the ego of someone who...well, matters.

Try putting yourself in the shoes of the people who get stones thrown at them whenever any update introduces some imbalance into the game - and really, with so many skills, professions, and game modes, there is always going to be some imbalance somewhere that someone can complain about - instead of being the anonymous guy throwing stones from amongst the crowd.

pumpkin pie · Apr 10, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

I wander if anyone is familiar with "most contest rules" something along the line: No employee (past or present) or family member of an employee (past or present) of XX Company or any of their affiliates, suppliers, thrid party providers, its advertising agency can enter and win the XX contest.

i am just wandering and thinking aloud, actually this has been sort of in the back of my mind for some time, and now i saw someone mention Izzy's Forum. and then I think about all the players who goes to GW Wiki to the Arena Net Staffs pages to report/complain/or whatever and not getting any attention at all from these staffs. And all this while, there is a secret forums somewhere where a bunch of "good friends" and "cronies" are secretly "plotting" something. so how do we know any of the contest and tournaments are even fair? how do we konw if the skills nerf are not "greatly influenced" by these friends and cronies ? weather (wanders if this is the correct weather) they be tested or not.

lutz · Apr 10, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

No, no, it's more ridiculous that you think you know better. See, it's their game. If they screw it up beyond all reason, well, they have the right to do that. It'd be pretty stupid, but it's still their job. You, on the other hand, are some random nobody on teh intarwebs spouting off (in many cases horrendous) skill changes, demanding that they be taken at face value, and that they would solve all balance problems in PvP. This is why it's ridiculous: because not only are you doing a poor job of suggesting skill balances, but you're a nobody with the ego of someone who...well, matters.

Try putting yourself in the shoes of the people who get stones thrown at them whenever any update introduces some imbalance into the game - and really, with so many skills, professions, and game modes, there is always going to be some imbalance somewhere that someone can complain about - instead of being the anonymous guy throwing stones from amongst the crowd.

You're acting like they gave out Guild Wars for free.

It's quite the contrary.

We paid for Guild Wars. Therefore, your entire argument is invalid.

lol @ saying my skill balances are bad.

Quote:

there is always going to be some imbalance somewhere that someone can complain about - instead of being the anonymous guy throwing stones from amongst the crowd.

Hi, these skill updates are not hard.
Everybody (intelligent) in Guild Wars knows exactly what needs to be done. Everyone is telling Izzy or whoever the new shitty skill balancer is exactly what nerfs need to happen.

They just don't do it. It's hilarious.

Tell me exactly what's wrong with the skill updates. Maybe some of them are a bit too harsh. And maybe defense needs to be nerfed a little bit more. But, you get the general idea.

If you knew what you were talking about, you probably wouldn't sound so retarded.

Fril Estelin · Apr 10, 2009, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

You're acting like they gave out Guild Wars for free.

You're acting like we're paying monthly fees.

This whole thread is a joke.

Krill · Apr 10, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

I could (and have) done quite a lot of bitching about skills that were buffed in the three major skill updates last year but there's no need to do all that again. You have a valid point questioning how the skill balancing is actually vetted because a lot of the problem skills should have been seen a mile away. The most obvious one in my view was the short lived WotA that was like 30% IAS with any weapon, there's simply no way that skill should have gone out the door if there really is any testing. The worst part about the skill buffs though is how long it took, and still is taking to balance the crap skills so some of the good skill buffs can actually be used.

However, I liked last month's update for the most part and understand if they really don't have time this month, so let's not light the torches just yet. What Regina said could be interpreted as "we're not letting Izzy push total garbage out the door anymore." Perhaps they understand what a disaster the skill buffing was and are going to be more careful in the future. Who knows though, it would be nice to get an official statement on the state of the game and future PvP skill balancing.

Medion · Apr 10, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

What's insulting to me is not so much that they let some of these things slip, but that they then tell us that we can't have a skill update this month because it wouldn't have "the level of polish, consideration, and testing that it should have.

That excuse doesn't really fly when normal updates don't have an exceptional level of "polish, consideration, and testing" in the first place. If I believed that by postponing this month's skill update, we would get a better quality one next month, or if there was a high standard of quality for them to be concerned with upholding to begin with, it wouldn't be such a slap in the face. Anet is famous for skill updates which ignore the major balance problems in the game, introduce new broken stuff, and generally don't improve things all that much. So why not at least throw us a bone and nerf at least one of the obviously broken skills/templates in the game?

This.
Well, I'm not that easily insulted really but I do agree with his point.

Quote:

You know very little about "testing". They have hundreds of possible combinations, it's not as simple as reading a piece of text and testing whether the skills actually does that

I'm absolutely not doubting your knowledge on testing. I'm simply going to assume, that yes, it is required to test every single skill combination possible (ok, I lied, I do doubt that but lets say I don't).
But in the end, the skill SHOULD do what it says it does. It not breaking other skills does not mean it's "fine".
This is the skill description for It's just a flesh wound.

Quote:

Elite Shout. Target other ally loses all conditions. If a condition was removed in this way, that ally moves 25% faster for 1...8...10 seconds.

I'm going to assume lutz is right in saying that the skill was bugged for some time.

How is it possible that the whole if-clause was missed? I'd assume that the first thing you do in a test, is to see if a feature (skill in this case) does what it's supposed to do. Since if it doesn't, you're gonna need to change it anyhow so the other tests are useless (since you'd need to redo them after changing the skill). And if that's not the first thing done in a test, why not?
It's like a car manufacturer putting in a new type of brakes into the car and first testing if it has any effect on the steering or the driver seat but not properly testing if the brakes work.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure QA has taken out many bugs, probably the majority. Ones which someone inexperienced in testing would never even consider. And that's great, absolutely great! But how can it be that a skill doesn't do what it says, if what it is supposed to do isn't complicated* at all.

Those saying the skill balances of lutz are bad have missed the point I think. It isn't about those specific changes. I'm sure lutz his skill balances aren't perfect. The point is that (from his point of view), changing numbers (integers) is not something that will break the game.

*By complicated I mean this:
1. remove all conditions from ally
2. if condition removed -> apply speed boost
I do not mean the actual coding here since I'm obviously unable to make a judgement on that

DarkNecrid · Apr 10, 2009, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You're acting like we're paying monthly fees.

This whole thread is a joke.

Monthly fees are typically used to pay for servers and customer support, not actually the employees who do stuff for the game, so I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point.

Fril Estelin · Apr 10, 2009, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Monthly fees are typically used to pay for servers and customer support, not actually the employees who do stuff for the game, so I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point.

1) GW servers are not free
2) Even if you consider XTH accounts as a form of "subscription", it's nowhere near monthly income for Anet, thus you'll be short of a lot of money to justify in GW business model the type of support/QA that the OP is suggesting (making the parallel with his own experience at Blizzard which has litteraly tons of money),
3) End of thread derailing on my part.

pumpkin pie · Apr 10, 2009, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You're acting like we're paying monthly fees.

This whole thread is a joke.

Like I said before, if all the staffs at Arena Net working on GW is getting paid, then do the job.

And I dare them to stop updating and nerfing and balancing. go ahead stop maintaining the game.

byteme! · Apr 10, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

lol @ saying my skill balances are bad.

Are you saying you're good? How conceited. Get over yourself. Reality bytes.

PS. Does this make you laugh too? LOL?

Zabe · Apr 10, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

This is the problem when posting to Guru. In every other place than Gladiators (and mostly even there) you will be jumped on by people that have no idea what they are talking about.

And I can predict their next argument when they jump on me: OMG ELITIST PVP'R!

And about the argument of ANet doing what ever they want with their game. They had a path to take when developing the game, either hope that the game would sell enough to keep the servers alive (and make decisions that reduce server costs like district stuff etc) or go for monthly subscription, they chose the first option, but that doesn't make my right to complain from shitty development of product I bought.

Apok Omen · Apr 10, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

You have to understand, there is a problem with them testing skills they want to fix. From their perspective, whatever decision they make will be the correct one and them testing it will have almost no effect.

Really, it makes a lot more sense if the players test it out for them. And not in a closed experiment. It has to be open to the public so that the really f'ed up stuff can be ran. That way, Anet will know what went wrong and fix it immediately.

Anet employees and testers don't play to win; there is no reward in it for them. But the players have more to play for; we look for anything that can help us win faster and safer, for that failsafe victory. They don't.

Now, yeah, it is getting annoying how they aren't fixing these bugs, but they also recognize the magnitude of the actual effect the bug has on the metagame. Right now, for example, [anthem of disruption] is bugged (or maybe not, I just don't think that a ranger should interrupt someone who's behind a wall just by attacking) Now, do you see anyone abusing this? No. Why? Because there is no huge reward for interrupting someone behind an obstruction once every 10-15 seconds when you can easily interrupt them with a spell or by moving closer to them.

Same with "Its just a flesh wound!". There are better elites available (Incoming) that teams take over it. And if someone wanted to remove the conditions, they can just use Foul Feast or RC.

But, I wholeheartedly agree that it sucks that Anet chooses to give the community more useless storage instead of much needed skill balance.

lutz · Apr 11, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Anet employees and testers don't play to win; there is no reward in it for them. But the players have more to play for; we look for anything that can help us win faster and safer, for that failsafe victory. They don't.

I hope this is a joke.